• Referenced scripture:
  • 1 Corinthians 7:1-5

• Recommended resource:
  • thenewsisgood.com
  • Husband in Pursuit, Ryan Frederick
  • Wife in Pursuit, Selena Frederick

Ryan: Selena, have you ever not been just totally attracted to me?

Selena: Ever not been? Have I always been attracted to you?

Ryan: Yes.

Selena: Yes.

Ryan: But the way I phrased it was more-

Selena: Never not been. [both laughs]

Ryan: Have you ever not been just completely captivated by my handsomeness?

Selena: Always 100%. [laughs]

Ryan: Now, that’s a serious question, actually. We had a listener write in-

Selena: You need to define attraction. We’ll get to that.

Ryan: What is attraction? What happens if you’re in a marriage and you look at your spouse one day and you think, I actually don’t really find myself feeling attracted to you.

Selena: Yeah, and which means I don’t wanna be intimate, I don’t-

Ryan: It means I want to be, but I’m just not. What say you to that husband, to that wife? Well, you’re gonna find out on the other side.

[00:00:49]

Ryan: I’m not really comfortable with how much you hesitated when answering.

Selena: I was trying to understand the question. [laughs] Never not been.

Ryan: I’ve been bamboozled. I’ve been hoisted by my own petard. That’s what Shakespeare would say.

Selena: That is funny.

Ryan: Yeah. You know-

Selena: I’ve always found you attractive. I don’t have moments that I’ve been like, ew or something. Because I think you’re very handsome, very cute, very hot. [Ryan laughs] So, I don’t know what it means you’re not attracted. Like, do I wanna have sex with you all the time?

Ryan: Oh my goodness, that’s inappropriate.

Selena: No. You know-

Ryan: You can’t say that here.

Selena: I just can’t always-

Ryan: You can’t say that here. [both laughs] You can’t say that. There’s decent people listening. Anyway, I always find you utterly stunning and captivating.

Selena: I just think it’s different for a wife. Like you’re always my hero, the go-to, the person that… not hero in like savior, but just… I don’t know-

Ryan: In a fighter sort of way.

Selena: You’re the head. I feel assured by you, yes, feel led by you.

Ryan: There goes your hero. [both laughs]

Selena: [singing] There go your hero.

Ryan: Anyway, if you don’t know who we are, welcome to the Fierce Marriage Podcast. My name is Ryan, this is my lovely wife, Selena, most stunning, beautiful, attractive woman I’ve ever seen in my life. And I’ve never once doubted that for a second.

Selena: I never doubted you.

Ryan: We’re the Fredericks. We’re the Fierce Fredericks on YouTube. If you’re listening, this is the Fierce Marriage Podcast. We also do Fierce Parenting on most Thursdays. We dropped a great episode last week on Thursday. So if you’re a parent, we encourage you to check that out. We talked about making core memories that last for your kids. I know we stress out sometimes as parents about giving our kids the childhood we think they should have. Well, maybe we should be released from some of that pressure. And that’s what we talked about.

So anyway, thank you for joining us. This question came in from a fierce listener. If you have a question and you would like to ask that, as you see, we’d like to answer those because obviously it’s hitting on something.

Selena: You’re not the only one asking.

Ryan: Someone in the real world is wondering about. And we’re not just coming up with it in this little office that we record these in. So if you wanna ask that question, go to fiercemarriage.com/ask. Anything goes. Anything goes. And you know what, friends, if you’re asking it, there’s a good chance someone else is too. So certainly if something’s on your mind, it’s burning in your heart, ask that question.

Selena: Little head wandering around back here.

Ryan: Yes. She’s shimmying better every day. [Selena laughs] Hello baby. What was I gonna say? Oh, this is coming out the week of Thanksgiving. So happy Thanksgiving to you.

Selena: Happy Thanksgiving.

Ryan: May it be filled with delicious meats. By the way, I think Turkey gets a bad rap. Turkey done well, it’s pretty darn good, right?

Selena: Yeah.

Ryan: You would agree.

Selena: I’ve always liked Turkey.

Ryan: You smoking on the trigger after a nice, healthy brining?

Selena: I’ve never not liked Turkey.

Ryan: And it’s awesome. I have definitely not liked Turkey at times. [Selena laughs]

Selena: Okay. So let’s read this question from a listener. I’m sure you have some questions of your own after you listen to it. But why don’t you read it? Because it’s obviously coming from a husband.

Ryan: Okay. And we got this baby in the background, so bear with us.

Selena: Nah, it’s just like you’re in our home.

Ryan: This comes from my good friend Anono. [both laughs]

Selena: There’s no Anono. Anone.

Ryan: Oh, whatever.

Selena: Anonymous.

Ryan: It’s an anonymous person. So he says, “I’m a preacher and I’ve been preaching for almost six years now, and I lead a young married couple small group on Wednesdays. I’ve been with my wife for four years, and we have a beautiful baby boy. For the past few months, I’ve really been struggling with being solely attracted to her. I’m not looking at porn or provocative women online. I’ve deleted almost all social media and keep those temptations away, but I found myself super attracted to other women and not as much to my wife. I prayed, I fasted, and even preached on topics like this, yet I can’t get any help for myself. I feel so guilty sometimes that I don’t even want to be intimate with her. Why is this my reality now? And how can I better control desires for other women and redirect them solely to my wife?” Signed anon. That’s a tough question.

Selena: Yeah. There’s a lot of questions within the question. I mean, thank you for submitting that question, I think, first of all. And second of all, there’s, I think, some foundational things we need to address because this is not just, “Hey, I’m just seeing other pretty people or women but I’m attracted to them.” So what does that mean? Is that crossing the line? What kind of direction is that headed?

Ryan: There’s definitely some… we need to define our terms, of course. I wanna first reflect on this a little bit. We asked jokingly, have we ever kind of lost that mojo, so to speak? I will say this, early on in our marriage-

Selena: How dare you? [chuckles]

Ryan: I won’t say that it’s never been an issue because, of course, I think every person, in some sense, in your sin nature, you have to learn to reject your flesh. You have to learn to call good what God calls good. If your marriage He’s called for you, your wife is good.

Selena: Right.

Ryan: It’s very relative in that sense. It’s an absolute principle, but it’s relative to you in that your wife is good for you, husband.

Selena: Yes.

Ryan: By fiat, if nothing else, God has said so. So every couple has to kinda work through that. So this person writing in, what’d he say? He’s with his wife for four years. Like, honestly, brother, you’re in the thick of it. You’re in the thick of I think where this temptation crops up because you’ve had enough life together to where really you have seen kind of each other at your best and at your worst by then.

Selena: As a wife, you know, he’s saying, we have a beautiful baby boy. I’m just thinking postpartum here, right?

Ryan: Right.

Selena: I’m just thinking right after a baby, a woman is… I mean, maybe, you know, you’re feeling very capable and able and strong. But for me personally, I did not feel my most beautiful. [laughs] I didn’t feel the most attractive. I felt just kind of sleep-deprived, dirty, sweaty.

Ryan: Well, this is why we have to define what attractive means because-

Selena: And I’m just thinking of the one moment though in our marriage, the four moments [laughs] where it’s really felt for me as a wife, I’m like, gosh, I feel like I’ve just kind of let you down in how I look.

Ryan: Oh my goodness.

Selena: But it’s clearly opposite, though, right?

Ryan: Yes.

Selena: If there could ever be a moment I think for me personally, it would be those moments. But-

Ryan: You’re describing something that is utterly foreign to me.

Selena: Right because-

Ryan: Because after those moments of having a child, I’m like-

Selena: You’re just like, “You’re a superhero and all the things.” Yes.

Ryan: Well, don’t go flatter yourself. I’m kidding. Yes, you are. [laughs]

Selena: You just make a baby. No one can. Men cannot.

Ryan: You can’t do without me.

Selena: It’s true. [laughs]

Ryan: Don’t go bragging too much. So right in that four-year mark-

Selena: Yeah, it is a hard moment.

Ryan: I wanna offer some advice, but I also wanna say this, don’t beat yourself up. Like, you know what objectively is right. That to me is the best thing to hear in this message is, I feel guilty about this. Well, that’s your conscience saying something’s not right. And you’re responding to that. You’re taking it to the Lord. You’re wrestling with it. And what you want is relief from it.

I’m here to tell you that relief will come. Now, part of relief is kind of dissecting what it is that’s happening in your heart and in your mind. One of the things that we did early on, I had this epiphany, right? I know that at some point there’s a preacher that said something similar to this but I can say that my epiphany predated that. Because people have blamed for copying.

But I realized that Selena is my standard of beauty. People on the internet have… this is for some reason very touchy for people. Because I’ll say, listen, husband, you need to make your wife your standard of beauty. Like if your wife has blonde hair, you love blonde hair. If your wife is five-six, you love five six. If your wife is, you know, whatever-

Selena: Whatever your wife is, that is who you love. That is-

Ryan: My wife is the ultimate standard of beauty. Anybody that looks anything different from her is not that. They’re not the standard. I’m not saying objectively-

Selena: No. And even if there was somebody that looked close to me or had my features, you would still be like, it’s not you. Right?

Ryan: Yes.

Selena: So your wife is the standard of beauty. And it goes without saying, but it’s also like, you know, oh, so you like brown-haired, brown-skinned women then, right?

Ryan: No. That’s not what it is.

Selena: So I’m clarifying that.

Ryan: You are the standard. Somewhere, I think it’s in Europe, there’s a standard of what a meter is. And it is the universal standard. Like someone established that that is what a meter is. So every other meter, you’re thinking, well, this is a meter. Well, no, it’s not a meter until you put it up against the standard and you realize, oh, it’s actually a little short or it’s a little long. It doesn’t meet the standard-

Selena: of a meter.

Ryan: …of what a meter… Well, not that I’m comparing every woman to you. That’s I think an exhausting thing to do. But in my mind, I’m thinking what it does is it says, I am choosing to objectively value what God objectively values. And I don’t always have to have every little jot and tittle of my emotions wrapped up in that truth to believe the truth in that you are beautiful to me because you’re you.

Selena: Well, and I think we have to be careful too, you know. He’s like, “I teach on marriage classes or this type of thing,” and he, yes, desperately wants relief from the struggle. But sometimes the struggle is kind of where the blessing can be, right?

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Selena: So if you’re struggling with, I mean, let’s just call it what it is, temptation, possibly even lust… attraction feels light. So let’s call it… I don’t know. Again, I don’t know the situation. But if it is lust, if it is temptation to sin, identify it as such and reject it. And in those… Just literally found the loudest thing to bang.

Ryan: My goodness. Some people’s kids. [both laughs]

Selena: I don’t know. As humans, we always, and I’m so guilty of this, we just try to get through the suffering. We just wanna get over it. Instead of saying, Okay, Lord, you have me here for a reason. There’s things that I’m struggling with. Open my eyes know, and help me to… Holy Spirit be my counselor, be my strength in exercising… produce in me self-control. So maybe there’s a preparation here.

Ryan: This is a good segue. Because how is the Holy Spirit, our counselor? And how does He produce in us self-control? Well, we have a standard by which we can read what God has said. Well, the standard is God’s word. We can read what He said. I was actually in 1 Corinthians 5, 6, 7, and 8 this morning.

Selena: We’ll read 1 Corinthians 7.

Ryan: And what struck me about that is just how objective Paul is viewing the institution of marriage. And he’s saying like, as a matter of fact, wife, you do not-

Selena: Your body’s not your own.

Ryan: Your body’s not your own, it is your husband’s. And husband, your body is not your own, it’s your wives. It is so just matter of fact. So when you think about this idea of attraction, what is that? We elevate feelings in our culture to a place of truth just by virtue of their existence. We don’t question our feelings enough.

Selena: We have feelings about our feelings. That’s me. [laughs]

Ryan: This person writing in is questioning their feelings and ask, what’s the right thing to do? Because your feelings are wrong, right?

Selena: Right.

Ryan: Our culture would say that your feelings tell you your truth.

Selena: But the Scripture-

Ryan: Well, the Bible says that your feelings… basically, that means it’s from your heart, right? It’s a source of deception. The heart is deceptive.

Selena: Deceitful.

Ryan: Deceitful above all else. So-

Selena: We need to guard our hearts.

Ryan: Guard our hearts. So we look at God’s word, we say, okay, my heart is deceitful, I am being deceived. I am not feeling attraction to my wife. And somehow that’s invalidating how… well, here’s what I’m here to tell you is that does nothing to invalidate your marriage. It does nothing to invalidate the commitment you’ve made to your wife. It does nothing to invalidate the fact that you objectively love her. That she’s objectively yours, and you are objectively hers.

How you feel in your attraction doesn’t change any of that. So the best thing we can do is look into God’s word and say, we can take every thought captive and do what? We can break it, make it obedient, make it obedient unto Christ, make it obedient unto the Holy Spirit, not our flesh.

Selena: Right.

Ryan: So we’re not aware a lot of times that this is the water that we’re swimming in. Because we’ve bought this lie that our feelings are kind of supreme-

Selena: It’s very pervasive, yes.

Ryan: …to a point where love is no longer what God described love to be. Love is some other thing that I’m defining based on whatever women fancy I’m feeling at the moment, based on what you chose to look like, smell like, sound like that day. And all of a sudden love is no longer what God says it is. It’s what Ryan says it is.

By the way, attraction is not a biblical concept. I mean, there is attraction clearly in Song of Solomon. There is the sense, in many scriptures, that women are inherently beautiful, they were designed to be beautiful by virtue of being attractive—men would be drawn to them. Their beauty is in some sense a glory of theirs. But this idea of attraction being some sort of precursor to a happy marriage is not a biblical category.

Selena: In one of our books, Wife in Pursuit… so we have Husband in Pursuit, Wife in Pursuit. They’re both like a 31-day challenge to loving your husband well, or your wife well if you’re the husband reading it. We talk about intimacy and how love pursues intimacy. So the Bible talks about love and how we should love one another. And it also talks about the marriage. Like, how are we supposed to live out and love in a married way?

We read about this in 1 Corinthians 7, we’re gonna talk about intimacy. We read about it in Ephesians 5, which we’ll talk about in a moment of how Christ is our example and standard of love. Do you wanna read 1 Corinthians 7?

Ryan: Sure. Starting in verse 1. “Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: ‘It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.’ That’s a quote Paul is quoting. “But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”

Selena: So I mean, I think we’ve all experienced this in our marriage when there’s kind of a dry season of intimacy, or it feels challenging. And Paul’s reminding you, like, sometimes… this may hit but hit wrong. But sometimes you just gotta jump into bed and go for it. You know, you kind of just gotta set some things aside and say, we’re gonna be intimate, we are gonna be together, and we’re gonna love one another. And just by the very act of beginning that, I think really begins to break away all the obstacles and walls, it’s-

Ryan: There are pragmatic effects that are beneficial. What strikes me about that is just how that’s a picture of what love is, right? Meaning that we’ve, again, to go back to what I said earlier, we’ve made everything subjective. Meaning that if I don’t desire it, it is bad. If I don’t feel it, it is wrong. And Paul is saying that that’s not the measure by which we judge it right or wrong. The measure by which we judge it right or wrong is, does your spouse desire it? Is it healthy for your marriage? Is it what you should give? That’s what makes it right or wrong. That’s how love works. Me choosing to love you doesn’t val-

Selena: It doesn’t invalidate.

Ryan: Me feeling like loving you doesn’t change the objective, good involved in the actions of loving you. I should do them whether or not I feel like it.

Selena: Yes. Absolutely.

Ryan: So we don’t apply that to the intimacy category, to the attraction category because that’s just the water we’re swimming in. But there’s none of that here. And I love how Paul says that even if you do, even if you do say you’re gonna abstain, and I put this in the same category, you know, intimacy, sex, attraction. Even if you say you’re gonna abstain, you only do it for a limited time, you do it with mutual consent, and you do it for the purpose of prayer. Not, because you’re doing some sort of like… I don’t know. I don’t know why you would do that, to be honest.

But those are the conditions. And there’s no other condition given for depriving one another or abstaining rather. You should never deprive. But anyway, it strikes me as… it’s a feature, not a bug in love. So when you feel your flesh clawing at you to say, don’t you see that? Don’t you see that girl? Isn’t she attractive? By the way, your wife’s not that attractive. You see that that guy, your husband’s not like him. Isn’t he attractive? By the way, you’re no longer attracted to your husband.

Selena: And how do you shut… Right.

Ryan: That is a lie from the devil.

Selena: They’re are lies from the devil. And he’ll lie to you both ways, and he’ll make you feel guilty for both things.

Ryan: He’ll trick you into it and then he’ll beat you up for doing it.

Selena: Right.

Ryan: And so the trick is you grab that thought and you say, “This thought is a lie.”

Selena: You make it obedient to Christ.

Ryan: I make it obedient. I’m actually attracted to my wife. Why? Because she’s my wife. And by the way, also I’m thankful… And by the way, very practically speaking, one way to get outta this loop is just start listing things you’re thankful for.

Selena: Amen. That’s usually what I do with if and when, thoughts of, you know-

Ryan: Wait a second.

Selena: There’s no temptation or anything.

Ryan: You just said that now.

Selena: If you could just even compare your spouse, which I think we’ve all been guilty of, maybe not you, but comparing, “Oh yeah, that guy achieves more. Oh, he’s like this a little bit more with his wife.” It’s like, no, but this is what I’m thankful for.

Sometimes when you’re with other, at least for me, when I’m around other Christian couples, I’m grateful for them because I’m grateful to see… I’m usually sharpened. But when the comparison game, right, not sharpening, but just comparison sets in, that’s where I begin battling with my gratefulness. And I say, “Oh no, I’m grateful for Ryan because he knows this about me, he loves this in me and I love him. I love this about him. I’m so grateful for these things about him.” So, you know, it goes on and on and on. And by the time, you know, you’re done with that list, you’re like, what was I even talking and thinking about?

Ryan: What did you say to me when you woke up this morning? What did you say? What was the first thing you said to me?

Selena: I had a bad dream.

Ryan: It wasn’t a bad dream. It was a nightmare. [Selena laughs]

Selena: The worst nightmare. Well, to be honest, we’ve been in a little bit of a funk. I’m not sure why. There’s just a lot going on right now with kids and sickness and animals and things. Like just life has been-

Ryan: Maleficence wives.

Selena: Yeah.

Ryan: A lot of that.

Selena: He’s been doing Hebrew and neglecting his family. [Ryan laughs] Anyways, by God’s grace, I had a dream that I woke up and he was not there, somewhere in my life. The baby was still a baby. And there were two guys there. I don’t know who the other guy was, but the Lovells were here. And I looked at John and I said, “John, he was here for the Fierce Families Conference, right?” And he goes, “Yes, he was.” And I said, “And now he’s not here.” And he goes, “No, he’s not.” And then I just like cried. because I was just… You were dead. You were gone. I was never gonna see you again. I came to the grips with this dream that like, I mean, the feelings of loneliness and gri… like it felt very real. And there was some real things. And I woke up so grateful for you. The Lord just used it to pull me out of whatever funk I was in. And you as well. [Ryan laughs] You’ll never admit it.

Ryan: The point I wanted to make from this-

Selena: You’ll never admit it. Don’t cut that. I’m just kidding. [laughs]

Ryan: Listen, you know, when someone’s wrong, they could admit it.

Selena: You can. Yes. [both laughs]

Ryan: No, you said, I’ve been spoiled. I’m so thankful for you. And I remember thinking, “Yeah, that’s right,” [both laughs] as I gave you a hug. Finally, someone will estimate me. You do that a lot.

Selena: I do. Too many of these. [laughs]

Ryan: Anyway, I can say the same thing about you. That I think as soon as you start appreciating and seeing… I hope we can get off this point. But seeing your spouse for who they are, seeing them for the gift they are, you know, and seeing them as somebody made in God’s image. With kids, it’s really easy to… this is a little bit of sidebar. It’s really easy to, with our kids, to just see the frustrations and not appreciate all that’s happening in their little heads.

Selena: The person of who they are. Yes.

Ryan: So one of the things we’ve worked at is just stopping and just behold the child.

Selena: And one way to do that is just looking in their eyes. Do that with your spouse, right? I’m sure that’s where you’re getting at, is look into their eyes. Like, stop, take the moment, take the time, look into your husband’s eyes if you’re the wife or your wife’s eyes if you’re the husband, just behold who they are and who God has made them to be and this time and this moment in history that you guys are together. He’s brought you together, He’s given you… to the person who wrote this in, he’s given you a healthy baby, which is a miracle, miracle, miracle.

And just because you struggle doesn’t mean that, you know, you have to just give up and give into temptation, like you said. Sometimes just stating it probably has already lost some of its power that you’ve said it out loud or written it out to somebody with.

Ryan: Here’s the kicker with this conversation is that you’re a man or a woman, you know, if you’re feeling this way in your marriage, who is trying to honor Christ, and you’re bound by your covenant. So here’s your options, right? Divorce is not on the table. Infidelity, not on the table. You can either grin and grit your teeth and just say, you know what, this is, you know, my lot in life.

Selena: Sure.

Ryan: I have married an unattractive person and I’ve just gotta deal with that. Or that’s one option. Or you say, God has given me a gift in a spouse.

Selena: Amen.

Ryan: He who finds a wife finds a good thing. Was God lying in that? Like truly was God lying or was that generally true, but not true for you? No. You can take that thought and you can make it obedient to Christ. And you can say, “I’m going to tell my feelings how to feel. And people will say, well, you’re just playing mind games or mental games. Well, absolutely you are. What do you think the enemy’s doing all the time when he is lying to you and your flesh is lying to you and the world is lying? It’s all psychological warfare. That’s why we take thoughts captive and we make them obedient to Christ. That is our role in the warfare. And we ask the Holy Spirit to be our helper in that as we obey.

Selena: So to this pastor, preacher, what would you say? Hold fast to your wife. Look her in the eye, be grateful for her. List of reasons why you are grateful for her and battle those temptations.

Ryan: I’d say get yourself in… frankly, get Husband in Pursuit. Pursue your wife, brother. Pursue her like you’ve never pursued her before. I would say write down a minimum of 10 things per day that you’re thankful for about her. I would say, talk to her about this. Don’t deal with this alone like somehow… You know, get it out. Because then many times it will suck us dry if we aren’t living transparently. Walk in the light in that.

I wouldn’t say you’re sinning, I would say that you need to walk in the light in this and be known by your wife. Talk to pastor friends, talk to brothers, express this to them. And then get in the habit of making your thoughts obedient to Christ. That’s what I would say.

And finally the encouragement in this, it’s not just like white-knuckling it. You’re not alone. This too shall pass. You’re only in your fourth year of marriage, maybe your fifth year. You got a lifetime to figure this stuff out. And covenant is there, it’s big enough. Love is there, it’s strong enough to help you work this out, and you know, you’re gonna find joy in your marriage.

Selena: Amen.

Ryan: If you don’t know Jesus, we want you to know Jesus. The way to do that is to a) find a friend who is a Christian and say, help me know Christ. Ask them to read the Bible with you. I’m sure they’d be happy to do that. Find a church that preaches outta the Bible so you can learn who God is. You can’t love someone you don’t know and you can’t know someone who you’ve never heard what they’ve had to say. God has spoken. You need a preacher to help you hear the gospel from God’s word.

Selena: Amen.

Ryan: If you can’t find either of those things or in addition to those things, go to this website, thenewsisgood.com. That should give you some direction as well. I think it’s time to pray. Our baby is… we are out of baby time.

So let’s pray. Lord Jesus, thank You for Your word. Thank You for Your comforter. You sent the Holy Spirit, thank You that He is here with us comforting us. I pray for the husbands, the wives who are struggling with this issue or other issues that You’d be with them, comfort them, give them wisdom, set their foot on the solid path, and lead them down the path toward reconciliation, redemption, hope, forgiveness, healing, whatever they need, Lord, that you would provide that for them. We pray these things in Your precious name, Jesus. Amen.

Selena: Amen.

Ryan: Amen. Amen. All right, thank you for joining us. If you would like to partner with us, we would love that. Our partners are a large part of making this podcast happen week in, week out. Go to fierce marriage.com/partner. We would love that.

That being said, this episode of Fierce Marriage is—

Selena: In the can.

Ryan: See you again in about seven days. Have a great Thanksgiving. Until next time—

Selena: Stay fierce.