• 00:09:58
  • Scripture reference: Proverbs 5:15, paraphrase, Berean Study Bible
• 00:20:05
  • The Office reference:
    • Season 7; episode 19
• 00:24:55
  • http://www.15secondkiss.com
• 00:29:58
  • Podcast reference: Prayer + Pursuit, and Why Your Marriage Needs Both
    • https://fiercemarriage.com/prayer-pursuit-and-why-your-marriage-needs-both

Selena:
So, today we’re going to talk about kissin’!

Ryan:
Kissing?

Selena:
Kissin’!

Ryan:
Gross!

Selena:
You know where that leads to.

Ryan:
[Laughing] It leads to… babies. Actually, kissing leads to dancing, and [Chuckling] dancing leads to babies. [Selena laughs] That’s what we were taught, right? [Laughing]

Selena:
I’m really glad that we are running a marriage podcast [Both laughing] right now.

No, this is meant to be kind of one of our more tangible, kind of, “Yes, there’s scripture; yes, there’s God. It’s all rooted in the gospel and the foundations of God and the Bible.” I think that’s—

Ryan:
Those are good foundations.

Selena:
[Laughs] Did I say that enough?

Ryan:
But we’re saying is this is intensely practical, meaning the whole thing stems around this one experiment that we tried, and we just want to share about it, and hopefully get you excited about it and [Selena chuckles] maybe go home and try it! Alright? So… It’s going to be a lot of fun! I mean that this time. [Selena laughs and Ryan chuckles]

Alright. And we’ll see you on the other side.

00:00:47

*Intro Sequence*

00:01:18
Selena:
So, before we get into this experiment, I’m so—I can’t believe we haven’t talked about this yet!

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
Like, we’ve written blog posts on it. It’s probably one of our most popular [Both say at the same time] blog posts! [Selena resumes speaking solo] I want to say podcast, but we haven’t done an episode on it, which… There’s a lot to it, than just the experiment, but we’ll fill that out in a bit.

Ryan:
So, let’s start it with a 15 second kiss. Ready? [Pauses] I’m just kidding. [Both laugh] You looked at me like, “Oh no!”

Selena:
I was like, “Mmm…” [Both chuckling] That’s one way to kill some time! [Selena laughs]

Ryan:
That would be so awkward. Can you imagine if we just [Chuckles]…

Selena:
Just the sounds in the mic. [Ryan laughing] “Gluuuck.”

Ryan:
A little ASMR.

Selena:
Gross.

Ryan:
That’s what that’s called, right?

Selena:
Gross. Anyways!

Ryan:
Yeah. This was one of our more popular blog posts.

Selena:
Probably one of the most popular [Chuckles] blog posts in the history of Fierce Marriage. So!

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
Before we do that, how about you do housekeeping this time?

Ryan:
Yeah. Okay.

Selena:
‘Cause I did it last time, and you kind of gave me the “wrap it up” finger.

Ryan:
I did! I did. So, here’s the caveat, ladies and gentlemen! We are recording this pre-emptively, so this will probably release after we’re having this third daughter of ours!

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Selena’s, as of the time we’re recording this, Selena’s 36 weeks pregnant; we’re kind of going to hold this until we actually, or within the last… You know, after you’ve delivered, and we’re three to four weeks out! [Ryan laughs and Selena chuckles] Because we want to take some time off and just be with our little baby!

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
And I need to be there for my lovely wife—

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
And I can’t be editing podcasts. [Selena laughs] So, we’re going to talk about things as if we’re pregnant now, but you might be hearing it after the baby’s due—

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
After the baby has be [Both say together] released! [Both laugh]

Selena:
Dear God has released the baby!

Ryan:
Right now, we’re in pre-release. [Selena laughs] Pre-release? Pre-order. We’ve pre-ordered this child! [Both laugh]

Selena:
Oh boy!

Ryan:
Hey! It’s a lot like releasing a book! I’m not going to lie.

Selena:
It is!

Ryan:
It’s way more fun doing the baby thing, though. [Laughs]

Selena:
Oh my gosh… Alright! Housekeeping.

Ryan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Selena:
You’re diverting.

Ryan:
Yes, I am. So, we always like the light. [Snicker] Oh gah! We always like to ask our listeners for ratings and reviews, so if you haven’t done that, it’s kind of a way to pay it forward, I guess?

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
And help other people find this material if it’s helped you. Then just get on iTunes or your favorite podcasting app, leave a rating, leave a review. It helps get the word out and it’s a little way of kind of reciprocating some of the content you’ve been helped by! So, thank you!

Secondly, if you feel called… So, we, Fierce Marriage, the podcast, is definitely funded and supported by you, the listeners. It’s like PBS! It’s brought to you by listeners like you! [Both laugh] Mainly because we believe, and we really like that model because it’s the one we see Paul utilizing in the early church. And he’s asking, I think it’s in Philippians and various epistles that he wrote, he’s basically saying, “Hey, join arms with me, as you’re the beneficiaries of this gospel that you’ve received; now, in my time of need, be the meter of that need as the body of Christ.

Selena:
Mm. Mm-hm!

Ryan:
And so, we like this model, so that way we’re not having to go through advertisers and things. But, anyway, if you’ve benefited from the Fierce Marriage podcast or from the content we put out there, and you want to see this content pushed even further into culture, then we would ask two things of you. One is that you would pray about partnering with us financially! And that looks like whatever God leads you to do, $2 a month on up, it’s whatever God leads… We really just want to amass and army, not so concerned with amassing an amount. We want an army of believers that are like-minded. So, if you feel the prompting, just pray! Ask God if He’s leading you to do this, and if He is asking you, then we would just encourage you to do the second thing, and that’s to act. And the way you act is you go to patreon.com/fiercemarriage. You can just sign up there to be a patreon; there’s all kinds of good stuff that comes along with being a patreon. Free stuff.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
We’ve given access to our free e-course for the Fierce Marriage book. There’s all kinds of good stuff there! So, anyway. Go to patreon.com/fiercemarriage and pray if you would.

Finally, if you have any questions, you can ask those. You go to fiercemarriage.com/podcast and you can hit the button there, or [Selena giggles] you can call or text this number: 971-333-1120.
00:05:12
Selena:
Okay! So, you did—

Ryan:
There we—

Selena:
What?

Ryan:
That we did it, housekeeping. Done!

Selena:
[Selena chuckles] Housekeeping, done! That’s faster than it’s ever been in our house! [Both laugh]

Anyways! We are going to talk about this experiment that we did a while back. It is called the 15 Second Kiss. And I’m still just baffled that we have not done an [Selena chuckles] episode on this. But it’s been super—

Ryan:
It’s kind of hard to talk about it. It’s kind of hard to talk about it over the podcast when it’s all about just “mmm,” [Imitates kissing noise] kissin’!

Selena:
[Selena giggles softly] Just kissin’. [Ryan chuckles] Well, but there’s a lot around it, because I think we’ve—

Ryan:
You’re right.

Selena:
Learned that it’s not simply just a kiss, right? To kiss for 15 seconds is kind of a long time, it feels like. And so…

Ryan:
It is!

Selena:
Why don’t you talk about where it came from? ‘Cause I think that’s kind of important! [Chuckles]

Ryan:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I met a guy named Tim. He was at our church. He’s an older gentleman who came, and I was the worship leader at our church. We were planning it in Southern California.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
We currently live in the Pacific Northwest. We were down there for about five years doing a number of things. Church planning was a main one. Selena was a leader at Young Life—

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
The local young life region. And it was awesome, awesome time. Anyway. One morning after church, I was talking to Tim, who was visiting from out of town, and he said, “Hey, we’re celebrating 50-year, whatever years, of marriage.” I think it was at least 30. [Selena chuckles] But it was a lot of years of marriage. And I said, “Hey! Well, we’re actually doing a marriage blog. What’s your take?” [Selena chuckles] Like, “Why are you guys still together? What’s the secret sauce?” And I was joking, right? ‘Cause there’s no secret sauce. It just is Jesus.

Selena:
Just Selena’s secret sauce.

Ryan:
[Ryan chuckles] There’s Selena’s special sauce, [Selena laughs] salty and sweet. Oh, what a treat! One of these days, Selena…

Selena:
One of these days. [Laughs]

Ryan:
And he just said, “Simple. It’s this 15 second kiss.” And I said, “What do you mean by that?” [Selena chuckles] And he goes, “Well, it’s exactly what it sounds like.” [Both chuckle] “You, every day, my wife and I would give ourselves a 15 se—Give each other!” [Both laugh]

Selena:
Whoops! [Both continue laughing]

Ryan:
“My wife and I would give each other a 15 second kiss.” And he said, “It’s long enough that you can’t fake it, and it forces us to connect.” And so…

Selena:
I think those are the two things we’re trying to…

Ryan:
Yeah!

Selena:
Really harp on, the two chords that we’re trying to harp on here is…

Ryan:
Yeah. And I never heard of that before!

Selena:
No.

Ryan:
That you would time a kiss in that way. It sounded a bit… It’s one of these things, like you could easily make it weird—

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Or it can be really enduring and fun!

Selena:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan:
And so, obviously we’re airing on the, not the weird side, on the [Selena laughs] enduring and fun side! And so, we went ahead and tried it!

Selena:
Yes.

Ryan:
Alright. We kiss… I feel like we have a pretty good kissing track record.

Selena:
Yep!

Ryan:
Selena, I’d like to think you’re probably the best kisser in the world, and I somehow snagged ya!

Selena:
And you are, you were my— I mean, for full disclosure…

Ryan:
No. You’re the best kisser! I’m just along for the ride.

Selena:
Well, that’s because I saved myself. [Ryan laughs] You little… Mac Daddy! [Both laugh]

Ryan:
[Laughing] Whatever!

Selena:
No. I did not kiss anybody. I kissed a guy on a cheek. That was it. But I never kissed on the lips or any major kissing did not happen before you! So, you’re welcome! [Laughs briefly]

Ryan:
That is crazy to think! And I’m thankful. Thank you for that!

Selena:
I was, like, 16, right, when we first kissed?

Ryan:
Yeah!

Selena:
Yes! Just different times, I think. And I just… I don’t know. I felt like I wanted it to be the person that I was going to marry.

Ryan:
And it’s so fun, too, because our daughter’s have your lips! [Both laugh]

Selena:
[Chuckling] They do!

Ryan:
[Laughing] Which—

Selena:
And with every child, we see this, we just got an ultrasound the other day, and with every girl the lips are getting puffier and puffier, I think.

Ryan:
They’re more luscious. [Both laughing]

Selena:
So… Yeah. Anyways!

Ryan:
And so, as the dad, I get to kiss all four of these girls! [Laughing]

Selena:
All the lips! [Laughing]

Ryan:
It’s awesome! On the lips. Yep!

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
But anyway. But, so, yeah. We tried this experiment.

Selena:
Mm-hm. I was a little, like, hesitant.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
I was like, “So, we’re going to time it on our phones, or like…?” [Laughs] What do we do? We count in our head, like one-one thousand, two—” [Laughing]

Ryan:
Yeah, no. Don’t do that. That’s just distracting. [Selena laughs loudly] Set a timer on your microwave! [Ryan laughs]

Selena:
Ther—Yeah. Perfect! [Both laughing] No. But I think that the important thing was the time that it took to do it, right? It’s a little intimidating, but it’s like you said, it’s long enough where you can’t fake it, and it really does force you to connect. Like, if you’re going to stand there for 15 seconds kissing…

Ryan:
Mm-hm.

Selena:
You’re either g—It’s going to get super awkward [Laughs], or it’s going to be awesome.

Ryan:
Right!

Selena:
And…

Ryan:
Right.

Selena:
That—Go ahead.

Ryan:
Well, the thing is, you burn 15 seconds all the time…

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Without even thinking twice about it. And here it is, now you’re focusing completely on one task [Selena laughs lightly] for 15 seconds.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
It’s tricky! It does take getting some used to.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
In fact, from the time I mentioned 15 seconds up until this moment—

Selena:
[Gasps] Was that 15 seconds?!

Ryan:
It’s been 15 seconds.

Selena:
Oh, my goodness!

Ryan:
So, it’s not a short period of time.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
When you’re not distracted. It’s a long period—Like, have you ever tried to hold a wall-sit for 15 [Chuckles] seconds, when you’re exhausted.

Selena:
Uh, yeah!

Ryan:
I’m not talking—

Selena:
All the time.

Ryan:
The first 15, I’m talking [Selena laughs] the last 15 seconds. [Ryan chuckles]

Selena:
When you’re legs start shaking! [Laughs]

Ryan:
Yeah! It’s brutal!

Selena:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan:
It’s brutal.
00:09:58
Selena:
Well, and I think that that’s kind of a good illustration for why the 15 second kiss can be such a… great starting point! Because sometimes we’re disconnected throughout our weeks; we’re not really—You know, people write into us all the time, “How can we have more sex?” or “How can it be more fulfilling? How can we connect throughout the week? We’re just kind of roommates; we don’t mean to be, but…” And kissing is one of those things that’s just super disarming, right? It’s just kind of—

Ryan:
Right.

Selena:
Starting the fire! And you can kiss it out! [Laughs]

Ryan:
Mm!

Selena:
And it’s one of those things that just… It requires so much of you! Like, your lips are a big thing! [Laughs]

Ryan:
Well, you can’t fake it. That’s what you’re getting at.

Selena:
No, you can’t fake it.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
And it’s really your heart that is being forced to be involved.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
And confronted with the fact that, “Okay, if this feels awkward, why does this feel awkward? Well, we haven’t kissed in a while!” And that’s the truth! And, ugh! That sucks, you know? Or that stinks; sorry! It’s not great [Ryan laughs lightly] because we want to be more intimate. We want to pursue each other, and we want to have more sex, right? But we can’t even seem to kiss for 15 [Selena giggles] seconds without feeling awkward. So…

Ryan:
Wow! That’s good and convicting. So, I think you’re getting to the root of this, and so we’re going to give you… Okay, these are the—This is a very practical episode, but five kind of takeaways from our experience.

Selena:
Mm-hm!

Ryan:
Right? And we’ll go through each one of those very quickly, but I think it’s important to root it, once again, in kind of this idea, the bigger ideas of scripture, namely the call of God.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
To an intimate oneness within marriage, not just sexual intimacy but on every level! So, intimate oneness that is spiritual, intimate oneness that is emotional, intimate oneness that is physical, intimate oneness that is financial, intimate oneness that has to do with your career, that has to do with every aspect of your lives. How you parent your kids!

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
It’s an intimate oneness that is, it’s not a [Inaudible], it’s not a… [Selena laughs] You’re not roommates, you’re not partners, you are one! You are partners, yes!

Selena:
[Laughing] A [Repeats inaudible word] …

Ryan:
But you are—

Selena:
Yes!

Ryan:
You are one first!

Selena:
Yes.

Ryan:
And what that means is there has to be a level of intimacy there. I know you’re pulling up Proverbs 5—

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Which is one of our favorite passages for this. This is a theme throughout scripture, with the one we like to harp on the most is in Proverbs 5, because it’s just a beautiful, vivid picture! Are you going to read it?

Selena:
Sure! “Drink water from,” this is verse 15. “Drink water from your own cistern, and running water out of your own well.”

Ryan:
So, that whole proverb is contrasting avoiding immorality…

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Sexual immorality verses sexual purity in your marriage.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
And it’s using the analogy of a cistern being the vat from which—It’s your own supply.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Of this sexual experience, sexuality, things like this. So, I think of kissing like this. It’s like you’re approaching the cistern. [Selena chuckles] You’re getting ready to drink water from your own well, but this is the ladle that gets the water out! [Ryan laughs]

Selena:
Right! There ya go! [Laughs]

Ryan:
It’s the vessel that you use to draw the water out.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
And it’s leading you on that active path of actually drinking. One of the things we talked about, I think it was probably a couple of months back, we talked about five characteristics of a healthy sex life, or five keys to a healthy perspective on sex.

Selena:
Yes, there it is.

Ryan:
And it’s that sex is an active thing, this verse in Proverbs is drink.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
It’s not, “Watch the water!” or even just, like, “Take care of the water,” but it’s actually partake and consume it!

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Actively go into it and drink it, and kissing is a gateway into that!

Selena:
Absolutely!

Ryan:
And again! What’s unique about kissing is it’s not just sexual. You can kiss without having sex. I hope you do! [Snickers] Do we kiss without having sex?

Selena:
Yes! [Laughs] I’m like, “Wait. What does he–?” [Laughs]

Ryan:
It’s a little harder to have sex without kissing, but I think you can kiss without going to the Nth degree.

Selena:
Right. Right.

Ryan:
Because it can be this really quick, intimate connection that is emotional, and there’s a sexual aspect to it, but it’s not…

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
It’s not… offensive, or inappropriate.

Selena:
Well, yeah—

Ryan:
In a lot of cases.

Selena:
And there’s like this balance, right? Like, if it’s purely physical you can be feeling a little empty, I think, after it?

Ryan:
Mm-hm.

Selena:
But if it’s physical and emotional and spiritual, it just, I think, heightens the experience.

Ryan:
Mm-hm.

Selena:
A lot more. And there’s more purpose in it, and, again, God designed kissing for a reason, and I think His reasons go deeper than just the physical.

Ryan:
Right.

Selena:
I think it starts there.

Ryan:
Interesting. Interesting. Yeah! So, with that foundation in place, knowing that kissing serves this greater, bigger purpose that is God-ordained, God-given, and good!

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
Sex is given by God, and it’s good; He designed it the way He did for a reason. He designed us as physical beings who would find pleasure in things like kissing.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Again, all that foundational stuff.

So, the first takeaway was one of the first things we talked about through our 15 second kiss experiment is that 15 seconds isn’t that long, except when you’re kissing, right?

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
And we talked about this, is you burn 15 seconds all the time without even thinking twice! So, how easy is it to just sit on your phone on Instagram or whatever, Twitter—
00:15:02
Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Whatever your poison is. [Both chuckle] Just to sit on there and daydream or even just work around the house.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
Or even just, you know, 15 seconds is never enough time!

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Except for when you are doing something hard and intentional in kissing, and/or kissing. [Selena laughs] Not that kissing is hard, but I think timing it can make it hard.

Selena:
I think depends on the…

Ryan:
On the couple, yeah.

Selena:
Well, and depends on the circumstances, you know? If we’re not really feeling it, and then we’re like, “Well, we should probably do this.” [Laughs]

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
Sometimes, I think it changes things. It changes things. So!

Ryan:
Okay! So, that’s the first one.

Selena:
Just throwing that out there!

Ryan:
Second take away, and we’re going to rattle through these pretty quickly, is it’s nearly impossible to, and this is what we discovered, it’s nearly impossible to kiss for an extended period of time and not feel closer!

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
So, it serves a very tangible purpose.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
So, if we’re not sociopaths, hopefully, [Selena giggles] where we can just fake it and not feel a thing.

Selena:
Yeah. Right.

Ryan:
But when you give yourselves over to someone for that period of time, it’s an intimate activity.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
And we found that as we kind of got lost, and we got of the timing of it—

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
We stopped thin—Like, five, six, seven seconds in…

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
We kind of stopped thinking of the timing aspect of it—

Selena:
Right…

Ryan:
And you actually get lost together, and the funny thing is you actually get found in that moment—

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
In your relationship.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Not found existentially, not spiritually, but found, like you’re found. “Okay, now we’ve arrived at a new place together.”

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
“And here we are!”

Selena:
Yeah!

Ryan:
And—

Selena:
It’s powerful!

Ryan:
Yeah!

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
Yeah. And one of the things we always think about, or at least we [Selena laughs] noted here, is that kissing always makes us feel closer. So, if you want to feel closer, it makes sense that you should try to kiss as often as you can.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
So… Selena, I’m preaching to you right now.

Selena:
For as long as you can. Oh!

Ryan:
I’m definitely the kisser!

Selena:
He’s definitely the kisser! His love language is definitely physical touch.

Ryan:
Just [Ryan mimics kissing noises]. [Both laugh] I just want more kisses!

Selena:
All the time! [Laughing]

Ryan:
And Selena’s, yeah…

Selena:
I’m like, “Okay!” [Laughs briefly]

Ryan:
So, I’ll get some… You know, brush my teeth, do the mouthwash [Selena laughs], gum… Altoids.

Selena:
You make me sound so high maintenance.

Ryan:
The whole thing. No, you’re not. But I like to, ya know, I present my gift to you! [Both laugh]

Selena:
[Laughing] I love it! Alright, so, number three. It refocused, so this 15 second kiss refocused us on who we are to each other.

Ryan:
Interesting.

Selena:
So, I think that’s partly what you were saying, where we kind of get lost in each other and sort of find each other also. You know, when you’re kissable close to your smou— You’re smouse? [Both chuckle] You’re spouse, you are, yes, you’re touching them, you’re smelling their breath, all those things that you, I feel even funny just saying these things [Selena chuckles], but it’s easy to begin seeing your spouse as a roommate and a casual partner verses your husband or your wife, because we so quickly and so easily just start functioning and doing rather than being together, and I think that kissing really forces that—enforces that aspect of our relationship. And yeah, it reminds us that we’re humans. We’re not just, again, roommates, robots, whatever.

Ryan:
Right! Right.

Selena:
It forces us to stop being distracted, to look at each other, and to be each other’s attention in that moment.

Ryan:
Yeah. I love that. It’s very humanizing.

Selena:
Very humanizing.

Ryan:
Yeah. And there’s no way around it. And yeah. That’s great!

Selena:
Always fighting that battle of dehumanization, I think.

Ryan:
Well, it’s so easy to objectify each other.

Selena:
Yes.

Ryan:
Now, hear me out.

Selena:
Okay.

Ryan:
‘Cause it’s not just… You objectify another person when you start kind of describing them or seeing them not as an individual with their own thoughts and emotions and opinions, but instead they serve a function that is somehow detached from the relationship.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
So, the example I always like to use is, right now I’m talking to you, and we are having a relationship together in this podcast, but if I were to step back with the microphone and say, “Selena’s now podcasting.” [Selena chuckles] “Selena is now picking up a glass of water to have a sip.”

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
“Selena [Selena laughs quietly] is now leaning toward the mic.” Oh, I’ve objectified her in a really kind of satirical way—

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
But that’s effectively what objectification is. Kissing doesn’t allow that! There’s no way to be, like, you’re kissing and you’re like, “Hm! Selena, now kissing me!” [Both laugh] I know that sounds silly, but you have to, you humanize each other.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
And you get close in that boundary, that barrier, that coldness.

Selena:
Mm-hm. The 15 seconds really melts that away, I think.

Ryan:
Yeah!

Selena:
And it really… You’re forced to humanize each other. You’re forced to face each other. You’re forced to fell and experience. And I think it’s that time that passes is what is the key here.

Ryan:
What’s interesting too is it’s not just—Kissing’s unique, but it’s not just kissing for this kind of stuff. Like, listening to someone also humanizes them. [Both laugh]

Selena:
Whaaaat?

Ryan:
You know? And listening also—

Selena:
Engaging.

Ryan:
[Chuckles] Well, listening also makes you feel closer. Listening also makes your marriage healthier. It leads somewhere else.
00:20:05
Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
So, all these things, I think you can exchange the 15 second kiss activity for any sort of intimacy building, intentional activity, right?

Selena:
This is funny. [Selena chuckles] I think of The Office, when [Selena chuckling] what’s his name, Will Ferrell? [Ryan chuckles] Demet-Jemitri? What is it?

Ryan:
Deangelo Jeremitrius Vickers. [Laughs]

Selena:
Yes! When he comes in and Michael’s just so, like, thinks he’s cool until everybody else thinks he’s cool, and then Michael gets super insecure, and he’s just like, you know, he starts hating on him and everything [Ryan laughs], just gets real cold towards him, and then he comes out and, like, gives him a back hug. You know? He’s just like, “I wish I could be,” what is it?

Ryan:
“Wish I could be like you.” And he goes, “You’re doing great!” And he’s like “No, I’m adequate.” [Laughs]

Selena:
Yeah. [Both laughing] “I’m adequate.” But he’s just like, “Sometimes you just got to, like, hug it out!” Or something. Wasn’t that right, when he said that?

Ryan:
I don’t remember. They’ve used the “hug-it-out” reference quite a few times.

Selena:
They have used it, and for some reason I think of that moment. But what I’m saying is that maybe [Laughing] you guys are in that moment of just, like, there’s some—You know, some big insecurities happening around your marriage, or you’re feeling some threats or whatever. Sometimes you just got to kiss it out! That’s what I was trying to get to.

Ryan:
Interesting.

Selena:
Sometimes you just got to… The path to… intimacy, and I’m not saying this blindly, because I know that there are caveats, there are nuances, and I know that there are big struggles. But I’m saying in the day-to-day disconnection, disengagement, you’re starting to not feel like you’re married anymore, I think kissing can definitely combat that.

Ryan:
Yeah. It’s so funny! I mean, it’s not funny. It’s good that you say that because… A lot of times, if we’re heading into, I’m just going to be really transparent, okay?

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
If you and I are, you know, it’s been a while since we’ve been intimate, and we both known it’s kind of time, usually I’ll be the one that’s soured [Both snicker] in that time. I’ll be the one that has gotten frustrated, and has felt neglected and, my love buckets tapped out.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
And I’m just, and even though you’re—

Selena:
I feel it in different ways, but I don’t express it like you do.

Ryan:
Yeah. And especially when it comes down to that time, and it’s like, “Okay! Well, the kids are with a babysitter,” [Selena laughs] or, you know, we have this moment together.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
The kids are asleep or whatever the moment is, that’s where I’m like, “I don’t feel like being close to you now!” [Selena laughs out loud] “I feel like you’ve neglected me this far.”

Selena:
That’s true.

Ryan:
And so often, if I can just get to the point of, like, “You know what?”

Selena:
Sometimes you just got to kiss it out!

Ryan:
“Just let it go.” Just try to let it—It’s hard.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
But let it go! And usually it will start with kissing.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
It will start with, I don’t know, just talking in a way that is “equivacatete”? I don’t know. It could look like kissing, right?

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
In that I’m being very open with you or am not guarded.

Selena:
Yes.

Ryan:
In that way.

Selena:
Yeah! Kissing definitely requires some vulnerability, especially when you’re not really feeling it, which leads us to our fifth one, which is kissing refreshes and energizes us. You know? You’re saying it might just be friskiness, but it is kind of an adrenaline shot, I think, to our relationship and to our interactions with each other.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
Because we’re not just talking about the things we need to do. We’re not just going through the motions of checking off a list of stuff. This is this pleasure and enjoyment, and the aspect of our covenant that is fleshly in some ways, that we get to experience for His glory, right?

Ryan:
Well, He did say the two became one flesh.

Selena:
[Laughing] Right.

Ryan:
So, I think it’s okay.

Selena:
Yes! I’m trying to just communicate that clearly, I guess, as far as—

Ryan:
It has an invigorating affect.

Selena:
Yes! It’s not purely flesh—

Ryan:
To your relationship to your flesh.

Selena:
Yes!

Ryan:
Yeah. That’s interesting! I like that, because it is true, and if you—Again, 15 seconds, folks! Not five, not three, try fifteen.

Selena:
Not twelve!

Ryan:
And [Selena laughs] 15 and more. 15 or over, I’ll say.

Selena:
Yes!

Ryan:
This last one, I think we kind of glossed over it. So, let me re-cap these real fast!

Selena:
Okay.

Ryan:
So, the first one is that 15 seconds isn’t that long, except when you’re kissing [Selena snickers]. So, just go in expecting that is the first observation. The second observation, it’s nearly impossible to kiss for an extended period of time and not feel closer to each other.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
The third way is it refocused us. And the observation is refocused us on who we are and otherwise humanizes us. The fourth one, Selena mentions, it refreshes and energizes us. And the fifth one is that, and I kind of alluded to it, is kissing is a gateway drug.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
In that a lot of times, it contributes to our overall friskiness in our relationship. [Selena laughs] If we’re connected, right?

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Your friendship is invigorated, and you have this constant, you’re kind of different wavelength…

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Not in an awkward—Don’t be awkward, folks.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Don’t kiss like this in public. [Both chuckle] That’s awkward! But it usually makes us more intimacy minded.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
And, generally, that has a good effect on our marriage.

Selena:
Yeah, I think kissing can do two things, right? It can definitely warm things up if it’s been kind of cold lately.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
But it also can be a result of that warming up as well.

Ryan:
Mm.

Selena:
If that makes sense?

Ryan:
Yeah!
00:24:55
Selena:
So, because I’m feeling emotionally connected because I’m feeling like we are partners in this, and we’re just kind of having one of those seasons where we’re connecting, and everything’s good, like, I want to kiss you! I want to express that love to you! If we’re in a cold snap and we’re not connecting, kissing can be one of those ways that we sort of intentionally step into it, and the feelings will follow after that.

Ryan:
Yeah. That’s good.

Selena:
So, it’s kind of a—

Ryan:
So, I mean—

Selena:
Dual purpose there. [Quickly laughs]

Ryan:
So, we’re going to encourage you to try this for yourselves. I do want to have a—I just want to take a little sidebar and talk to, maybe, the couple that you just started talking to.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
Where it’s kind of the way to get through that cold period.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
So, if in that sense, I feel like kissing sometimes, I don’t want to over-spiritualize.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
I want to say this, though. Sometimes is an act of faith, in that you don’t necessarily feel like extending yourself, or affection, in this way.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
And sometimes it’s an act of faith, trusting that when you kind of flip this switch and make yourself vulnerable in this way, and this looks like any way your making yourself vulnerable! Right? Whether I’ve let my guard down and I’m actually telling you how I feel or I’m listening to how you feel.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
Or I’m confessing something to you, or I’m forgiving you of something you’ve confessed to me.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Or we’re studying God’s word and talking about our faith. So, we’re being vulnerable in these ways.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
Now, kissing, in that sense, can be an act of faith, in that you feel like you’re stepping out on a limb. “Will I be received, or will this make things better or worse?”

Selena:
Mm. Yeah.

Ryan:
And I’m not going to say that kissing will make things better all the time; I feel like there’s too many nuances. But I will say this, that in some cases, it can be an act of faith that gets you to that next step.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
And does help you out. So, that’s our challenge to you! If you’re in that spot where you guys are in a healthy spot, and you feel good.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Or you feel like you’re maybe a little reserved and this is going to be a hard thing, is give it a try!

Selena:
Yeah. It might be a challenge, but that’s alright!

Ryan:
And definitely give’em a heads up! Don’t just go lay— [Selena laughs] ‘Cause you got to be in it! Like, you can’t… ‘Cause you’re both—

Selena:
You both got to be in it!

Ryan:
‘Cause your husband or your wife’s going to be trying to get away, saying, “What the heck are you doing?!” [Both laugh] So, make sure you give them a heads up and say, “Hey, I heard this podcast. They did this 15 second kiss experiment.”

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
“They had these observations. Let’s see what happens.”

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
And when you do that, go to this website; go to 15secondkiss.com. Yeah, that’s right! I bought the [Laughs] URL.

Selena:
You would!

Ryan:
I would. Go to 15secondkiss.com. All that does is redirect you to this blog post, and this podcast episode; eventually this podcast will be on that blog post. And leave a comment there about your experience! And then just share that with us if you tried it. Yeah!

Selena:
That’s awesome. Did you have a question from a listener at all?

Ryan:
I do!

Selena:
Yes!

Ryan:
So, this is a shorter episode, so I wanted to take a moment and just talk to one question that came through, ‘cause I feel like this is very thematic.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
For a lot of couples, and it’s a big thing! So, I just want to open the can right now.

Selena:
Oh boy! Okay.

Ryan:
And see where it takes us. But the question is this; this comes from “LeoWife” [Selena quietly chuckles], is the name we were given. It says, “How do I love my spouse while separated and I’m the only one who has a relationship with Christ and is standing for the marriage?”

Selena:
Mm…

Ryan:
So, she’s a—

Selena:
That is a very—

Ryan:
It’s very common.

Selena:
Very common.

Ryan:
And you’re not alone, is my first thing that I’d say to you, is that you’re not alone because Christ is with you. He’s close to the brokenhearted, one! He is close to the brokenhearted.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
He also, you’ll see throughout scripture that God has a special place in His heart for the widows, basically.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Effectively, you’re not a widow, but God is close to the single women in scripture.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
And so, if you feel abandoned in this case, I just want to say that you are not alone, because of the Savior you have, and the God that you serve.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
Secondly, you’re not alone in that there are other people in the body of Christ who have been where you are…

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Who are where you are, and who have either seen hope in that, or seen their way out of it by the grace of God. Okay. So, know that where you are, there is hope and sometimes you just need that when you’re in a place of hurt.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
You’re in a place of sorrow. You just need someone to remind you of the god you serve, and the hope that is your birthright as a Child of God.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
Somebody adopted in by the blood of Christ. So, that’s the first piece that just came to mind. Do you have anything?

Selena:
I think that this one’s always hard to swallow, but I think that God is so faithful in it. When we remember that truly Christ is sufficient for us, in all circumstances.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
And that’s hard to understand, and I think see, especially in times of brokenness and separation. And I wouldn’t underestimate your prayers. I’m not saying that this is not, like, “Say these things and it will happen,” but really pursuing Christ, pursuing God, petitioning His heart for the heart of your spouse, your husband, I believe…

Ryan:
Mm-hm.

Selena:
Is that? Okay.

Ryan:
Yeah.
00:29:58
Selena:
Asking God to soften his heart, asking God to put people in his life that would stand for your marriage, that would advocate for you guys.

Ryan:
That’s good!

Selena:
I think that that is a way that we can exercise our faith, we can interact with God, and ask God for the things that He can absolutely give to us; not saying that He will, because we don’t always know His perspective on everything. But we have to ask.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
We can ask. He wants us to ask. And He is still a good Father, no matter what the answer is, and I think remembering that in the hardest times is truly where we’re refined, and where our faith is built.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
And that’s not to diminish the hurt or diminish the brokenness that’s happening. I think God is going to use it. He uses every piece, right?

Ryan:
Yeah! Yeah.

Selena:
Of our relationship, of our marriage, not just the good but especially the bad, I feel like.

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
Especially those hard times. He’s so faithful to redeem.

Ryan:
That’s a good word. Very encouraging. Two things came to mind that I would just layer in, all really good.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
The first one is that you said you’re standing for your marriage. So, let’s see, how do I love my husband while separated? And this goes for husbands and wives. How do I love my husband while separated from him, and I’m the only one who has a relationship with Christ and is standing for the marriage?

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
So, I just want to encourage you that you’re doing the right thing!

Selena:
Mm-hm!

Ryan:
Keep standing!

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
That covenant that you made with your husband is important to God.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
It’s important to you, clearly. Keep standing! Get people, like Selena said, in your life that will advocated for your marriage. We’re praying for that into your husband’s life, that will advocate for you and advocate for your marriage. But also, surround yourself with those same people.

Selena:
Yeah!

Ryan:
‘Cause, and in that sense, you’re listening to this podcast. [Chuckles slightly]

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
So, keep standing! And, you know, we have friends who their parents got divorced; he went off and had this high-powered job, had countless affairs, he served papers and she basically signed the papers but said, “I’m not signing this with my heart. I am standing for our marriage.” She never remarried. She stood, stood, stood. Can you imagine?! Okay, you know how long they stood? For 20 years!

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
She stood for 20 years.

Selena:
Man.

Ryan:
Now, okay, that’s bittersweet, right?

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
‘Cause 20 years is a long time.

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
And no spouse wants to be on this side of 20 years, looking out, saying it’s going to take 20 years. And she miraculously, and supernaturally God gave her the strength to stand.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
In a way that was honoring to Him. And what happened 20 years later? Her husband—

Selena:
God got a hold of his heart!

Ryan:
God finally got a hold of his heart in His perfect timing! It wasn’t like God was trying and failing.

Selena:
Right? [Quietly chuckles] Sorry!

Ryan:
And I’m just nuancing that a little bit.

Selena:
Yeah.

Ryan:
God finally got a hold of his heart, and he came back. And now they’re married again, reconciled. They remarried and living out their covenant together.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
And so, all that to say, I’m not going to say that everything ends that way; we don’t have that promise in scripture. We do have the promise of Christ!

Selena:
Right.

Ryan:
We have the promise of His sufficiency. We have the promise of His joy and peace and everything when we put our hope in Him.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
So, I just want to, I guess, share that testimony, hopefully to build your faith and to trust God in that way, and trust Him regardless of the outcome.

Selena:
Mm. So good.

Ryan:
And then the second thing that came to mind; so, that was the first one. The second one is, a few weeks back, we talked about praying and pursuing, prayer for each other.

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
Is usually you’re praying for things that out of your control. This is completely out of your control! Pursuing is something that’s in your control. You can still love him, like Christ loved the church, or like Christ loved you. You can still love him and give him whatever the Holy Spirit calls you to do in the name of love, in the name of Christ-like love. Do those things in the name of pursuing of your husband!

Selena:
Mm.

Ryan:
But also, don’t forget to pray! That trusting that you’re putting your husband’s heart, your marriage, your heart in God’s hands as a response to God’s word; that’s what prayer is! It’s responding to what God has already said.

So, anyway. Just stand on God’s word, stand on His truth, pray, trust, and pursue. And surround yourselves with people. It’s not an easy thing to do. But anyway. We hope just any bit of this has helped! [Both chuckle] There’s a lot there.

Selena:
Yeah. No, it’s very common. And there’s a lot of people, I think, that are dealing with this. So, you know we’re all about marriage advocates, ‘cause there’s plenty of people that would just say, “Hey, give up! It’s easier.”

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
“Go find somebody else that will make you happy.” But God is—

Ryan:
Don’t give up. Yeah.

Selena:
God is saying, “Don’t give up! Don’t give up! Trust me! Trust me!” So, we would just echo that, and yeah. So, pray, pursue, root yourself in scripture every day.

Ryan:
And if you’re not, be a part of a local body of believers that are Bible-based, gospel-centered.

Selena:
Mm-hm.

Ryan:
Okay? And get a pastor around you, somebody who can, you know—A pastor’s wife, somebody who can stand alongside you in this.

Selena:
Absolutely.

Ryan:
And stand on God’s word with you.

Selena:
Absolutely.

Ryan:
Do not do it alone!

Selena:
Yeah. You don’t have to.

Ryan:
You’re part of a body of believers.

Selena:
So good!

Ryan:
Okay! This is a short episode, but I think we’re going to call it here.

Selena:
Okay!

Ryan:
Because we’re going to go get some lunch. We’ve done two episodes today, so [Selena giggles] anyway.

Selena, why don’t you pray us out?
00:35:01
Selena:
Okay.

God, thank you so much for who You are! And how You created us, how You created our bodies, and how kissing can lead to so much more than just the physical intimacy, but also the spiritual and the emotional intimacy, that You have purposed and created and desire for our marriage, God.

I pray that You would use this podcast to either warm some things up where it feels a little cold in the marriage, or I also pray that You would use it to continue as an expression of the fire that You—That the connection that they’re having, that Your grace is allowing in their relationship at this time, God. And I pray that it would all be for Your glory!

Ryan:
Yeah.

Selena:
Thank You that You’ve also designed it for our good, Lord.

We love You, and we trust You.

In Jesus’ name,
Amen.

Ryan:
Amen.

Alright! This episode is!

Selena:
In the can!

Ryan:
Alright, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening to the Fierce Marriage podcast. We hope this has blessed you, and as always, we will see you in about seven days! And until then, stay fierce!

00:36:11

*Ending Sequence*

00:36:51

Podcast ends.