• [00:14:40]
  • Scripture references: 
    • Hebrews 13:4, ESV

• [00:17:56]
  • Scripture references: 
    • Proverbs 30:7-9

• [00:34:23]
  • Matts Book: Lead Me: Finding Courage to Fight for Your Marriage, Children and Faith

Ryan: All right, awesome Fierce Marriage listeners, we have a treat for you today. We have Matt Hammitt.

Selena: Yeah, from the band Sanctus Real. He wrote the song Lead Me?

Ryan: Yes.

Selena: Pretty famous.

Ryan: He’s done a lot of really…

Selena: He’s kind of a big deal.

Ryan: Kind of a big deal. Although he’s not here to talk about music. [Selena, Ryan laughs] He’s here to talk about marriage because God use…honestly, he used Matt’s success to kind of get at his heart and help him reorder his priorities. His story is one of radical transformation, radical change. And not only that, he’s a really great guy to talk to. He’s really nice.

Selena: Super wise. I mean, career is career, right? You don’t have to be an onstage singer, or band, songwriter to experience God’s pull at your heart and transformation in terms of your identity. I think we all can get wrapped up in what we do and the roles that we have. And that can lead us away from, you know, the heart of God in a lot of ways. So he’s super articulate. A great podcast episode. So looking forward to sharing it with you.

Ryan: Yeah. So if any of that kind of hits a sore spot for you, make sure you listen to this one. You’re bound to learn something that’s bound to bless you. So here we go. Matt Hammitt.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, today, we have Matt Hammitt with us on the podcast. Matt, how you doing?

Matt: Hey, doing great. Thanks for having me on.

Ryan: Yeah, man. Thanks so much for joining us. You came very highly regarded. I know a lot of our listeners probably know of your past work in a band. What band were you a part of?

Matt: I was in a band called Sanctus Real for 20 years.

Ryan: Wow.

Matt: It is so crazy. We can have 15 of those years of spare records.

Ryan: Wow. And I feel like 20 years in band years is probably like 60 years of anything else, right?

Matt: Yeah. Yeah, man. It’s rough especially in the early days when you’re in the van and trailer sleeping between 15 passenger seats and all that. It’s hard on the body. But yeah, it’s an adventure for sure.

Ryan: I feel like Christian music isn’t…I mean, we could probably have a whole podcast episode about Christian music. [Selena chuckles] But it kind of gets a bad rap, right, because it’s kind of like the CCM stuff and all that kind of typical whatever, chords, like three-chord songs, all that kind of stuff. But I will say, for some of the fringe genres, I feel like Christian music has absolutely led the charge. Right?

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Ryan: I mean, would you agree with that?

Matt: Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think it’s like anything. The weird part about Christian music is that it’s kind of all the flavors in one basket. It’s like, man, some people just say, “Well, I like a certain genre of music” but it’s weird when the genre includes every genre. The genre is more the message than the style of music. So I think that is the hard part of just one. You may or may not like everything you hear in the genre. I mean, part of that because it’s so diverse. But I agree, man. There’s a lot of artists who are stepping up and making some good stuff.

Ryan: Especially in the ironically death metal. Christian death metal. [laughs] It’s awesome.

Matt: It really is, man.

Ryan: It’s incredible.

Matt: It really is honestly.

Ryan: And they’re skilled musicians.

Matt: I got a buddy who’s the drummer for Demon Hunter?

Ryan: Oh, yes.

Matt: Yeah, Yogi, man. That dude can…Oh, he can play. They pack [inaudible].

Ryan: Yeah? Oh, yeah. I could talk about that for the length of the podcast. But I think I’ll probably do something marriage related from here on.

Selena: There you go. That sounds good.

Ryan: So you wrote a book, right? We want to hear the story. Where did the book come from and really what welled up in your heart specifically through your years with Sanctus Real and the effect that had on you as a young husband and a father? I mean, you were with the band for so long it just kind of spans all those critical moments in a young person’s life. So why did you write this book? The book is called “Lead Me.” And where does that title come from? Just give us kind of the…

Selena: The story behind the story. [chuckles]

Ryan: The story behind the story.

Matt: Yeah, sure. Yeah. When I was 19, we started getting…there’s two things that happened. Obviously, Sanctus Real was already a band for several years. We started high school. But then we get started getting a record deal offers and I met my wife. In 2001, we signed a record deal and then me and Sarah got married. We went on the road together as newlyweds for four years. She was so gracious. She helped us with the merchandise and slept in the back of the van with me, with a bunch of dudes. I’m sure it was horrible but she braved it.

Selena: That’s a good wife right there. [chuckles]

Matt: I know right?

Ryan: Oh, man.

Matt: Totally. From day one, I can honestly say I really felt that tension. Every man does, every marriage does. Men and women both feel that tension between career dreams and family dreams. And maybe I didn’t know how to articulate all that at the time. You know, I was just feeling that tension and that restlessness. Four years into touring, Sarah got pregnant with our first child, a little girl named Amy who’s [inaudible] up 14 this month.

Ryan: Oh, wow.

Matt: So she left the road, and that’s when it really ramped up for me. That’s when the tension started getting thick, thicker. It’s like, now she wasn’t with me, now she was gone. Now I’m away 200 days out of the year and she’s a home almost feeling like a single mom. It’s like, “Hey, I married you to be with you and I like you and I want to be around you.”

Long story short, that distance, that tension led to a lot of struggles in our communication and conflict resolution and definitely was the starter for a lot of fires in our marriage. At some point around seven years, my wife just sat me down for kind of a really more of a formal…instead of one of these blow-ups where you keep everything pent up, and then you go at each other, she was like, “Hey, let’s just sit down. I need to talk to you.” The thing about that that was different for me was that I didn’t see her express the anger. I just saw her heart. Into tears, she told me the things that she needed for me as a husband to be more present, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. My defenses kind of crumbled.

That day after that conversation, because she was hurting man. I could see where she was. It was not a good place. I picked up my guitar that day and I wrote the first draft of a song called Lead Me. And in that day, that began what I call this Lead Me journey, as I call it now, where I realized that all my good intentions that I had my whole life of the kind of man I wanted to be and now the kind of husband and father I want to be, those good intentions were worthless to anyone but me until they became actions.

So I just kind of embraced that message. Obviously, it didn’t change overnight, my marriage didn’t change overnight. But one small step at a time, I started kind of embracing that message more and more in my life. That song went on in 2010 to come out and become a number one song. But, I mean, there’s a lot more going on there. By the time that song came out, we were pregnant with our third baby. We found out that that baby was going to need multiple open heart surgeries after he was born. So Lead Me goes to number one on the charts, I’ve everything I wanted from a career standpoint or being asked to do every major tour. You know, it’s all working this dream that we’ve worked so hard now for 14 years at that point.

And then the day it hits number one, I’m at my son’s bedside after his open heart surgery fighting for his life because he’s barely hanging on. And you can imagine I’m feeling now the tension of this message. And then that five months, for five months we were in the hospital. And then, what did I have to do after that? I took five months off work. I had to go back and provide for my family. And here’s the irony of the whole thing, and then we can move on. The irony of this story is that the very song that I wrote about being a better and more present husband and father, the success of that song is what pulled me further and farther away from home than I’ve ever been. That kind of the springboard from where this entire story more than just a song where Lead Me comes from.

Ryan: Wow. That was…you said 2010 when that happened?

Matt: Yeah.

Ryan: We’re 10 years later, roughly. Where are you today? I’m sure this is encapsulated in the book, right?

Matt: Yeah.

Ryan: Where are you today as a father, husband, and musician I guess, now an author? How’s that fall?

Matt: So, after five years of just real struggle between me and Sarah, learning some hard lessons, thinking I was getting closer to having it all together when I wrote Lead Me to watching it all almost fall apart. And again, that’s all in the book, the nitty-gritty. I gave all the dirt in the book so people can see just what it was like for us. It was so difficult for several years after the song came out and me coming to the realization that “you know what, I’m singing the song every night. And there were times that Winter Jam Tour or Casting Crowns where I had 10,000 to 15,000 people a night singing every word of that song back to me. And it just was like a weight because I knew I wasn’t living it.

Ultimately, I really felt God just saying, “Hey, you need to sing the song less and live it more.” And I made the hard decision in 2015 to give one more year to Sanctus Real and then I stepped away knowing that my call, which is kind of where I am now, that my call was to take this message I’ve been given, first to live it with all my heart the best I can, day by day, and then walk alongside other men in marriages and families to try to do whatever I can to steward this message that God has put in my heart and unfold that.

So in the last few years, I do music, I still perform some, I still write a lot of songs, I write for other artists that you hear on the radio, but primarily I’m writing and speaking on this issue of the struggles that we all face in marriage and family. It’s not easy. I love being able to share my story and let people know they’re not alone in whatever way shape or form God allows me to.

Selena: That’s so good. I feel like we should…I don’t know why we didn’t ask Sarah to be on the podcast as well. I’m a little more sad.

Ryan: Maybe she’s busy with the four kids.

Selena: It’s probably. Probably. [all chuckles] But maybe we need to have him back again.

Matt: Yeah, she is upstairs. She’s upstairs trying to keep the boys quiet right now.

Selena: Oh, yeah. [laughing]

Matt: Next time we’ll get a sitter or when the girls are here and we’ll definitely have her on. So you let us know and we’ll do it.

Selena: Definitely. Definitely. Because, I mean, just hearing from her perspective of how did she communicate to you in a way that wasn’t nagging, that wasn’t self-righteous, that wasn’t fear-based or anything. People are always asking us, like, “I don’t know how to approach some of those hard conversations of he’s working too much,” or “I feel like we’re not connecting,” or “I don’t even know where to start. You know, how do I even begin these conversations?” And I love that you said you heard her heart more than anything? And yes, that’s probably like the work of the Holy Spirit in each of us. There’s softness there that God is…I think He tenderizes us in some ways. I mean, you can just share a little bit of your perspective from her. When you said you heard her heart, how did that transpire in those moments I guess?

Matt: Totally. The funny thing is that I get people, especially women, come up still all the time when I’m at events, or if I sing that song somewhere say, “Hey, can you just tell me what was it that she said to you that day?” And they are like…[inaudible] the golden key to their husband.” The funny thing is that if you were to ask Sarah like, “What was it exactly you said to him that day?” She’d say, “I don’t totally remember because I said it a thousand times before and he didn’t listen.” That’s just real honest.

Selena: Sure.

Matt: It took those seeds being planted in me to be able to break it down to a point where I could open my ears and my heart. Sadly, it kind of took seeing her a breaking point. And I hate saying that now. That’s kind of a goal now is to not obviously let it get there. Right? Like you try to address it instead of the proactive, instead of being so reactive. And we finally got into that place.

But I will say the thing for me, you know, it was about presence. I remember her saying to me, “You’re here but you’re not here.” I think that’s a common feeling that women have. Like we’re distracted by work and all that going on. But I would definitely say the thing, and I maybe I already mentioned it, but I’ll say it again, the thing really was so often I think was I’m talking with guys, we sometimes miss our wives hearts because sometimes we wait to say what needs to be said until it’s at that snapping point. And then when we see anger it shuts us down. So we actually are blind to the heart because all we see is a secondary emotion, right? The mask, the facade of anger.

When I saw her heart without the anger in front of that, that was when I could really press in and feel that I had a safe place to move in towards her. And those are still the miracle moments that we experienced, the best moments in our marriage. You know, we still have the problem where like she sometimes lashes out about her feelings in a way that’s angry, and I get defensive. But those are such beautiful moments when we do peel back those layers and see each other for who we really are. And we’re working harder than ever to try to do that for each other—to peel back all that extra junk that stand in the way so that we can create the safe zone to be known for exactly who we are and how we’re feeling.

Selena: That’s so good.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. As I’m hearing you talk, I’m 100% just in awe of our faithful God who works in our hearts and let it mount to that point to where you could hear it in a way that was actually going to move you forward. I can’t help but think, though, and this might be a tough question, but I’m going to ask you anyway. Because there’s a lot of that kind of being presupposed in this conversation, meaning that a healthy family is good, being present with your family is good. All that stuff sounds really obvious, right? But it’s kind of contrary to maybe the subversive cultural message.

I guess I want to ask you this question. Someone once said to me, I forget who it was. Probably someone smart wrote in a book or something. But they said, “The essence of sin or every sin is just disordered love.” A lot of husbands struggle with this, with bad priorities, with disordered love in these ways. So in that moment, this is the question I’m going to ask is, would you say that you were actively sinning against your wife? And how did that hit your heart or has it hit your heart in that way? Would you say that a husband who is living now in that current situation is actually sinning against his wife?

Matt: Oh, yeah, man. I mean, I’ll be honest. I feel like I sin every day in my impatience against my wife and kids. I grieve over it, man. Even just yesterday, my wife and I were talking, we’re working on these creative projects and it’s so easy for me to snap at a kid when they’re interrupting me while I’m trying to be creative. You know, putting bouncing ideas together. Yeah, absolutely. I do think the Bible calls us to put aside any kind of talk that tear each other down and our attitudes that stand in the way of love.

I think the biggest issue is that we’re afraid to recognize, and I’m still this way, and Sarah tells me all the time, you know, like, “Man, you just own it. Own it. Own what you’re gone through. Own your attitude.” You can fight it and say, “Well, it’s not really bad,” or “it’s not that bad.” It’s like the more you learn to own it, the smoother it all becomes because you don’t have to live in this shame of like… I think that’s the big thing for guys. We’re hard on ourselves. We’re shame-based. So we can allow our fault to stand in our way because we’re afraid to admit them, because if we admit them, then it’s like this admission that we’re weak and we already feel weak. And it’s scary sometimes. But then it’s like, once you own it, and just say, “Yeah, you know what? It is sinful. It’s wrong for me to act this way or to not hear my wife or be loving towards her, understanding towards her,” then it’s like, “Okay, cool. We can move on.” You can own it and move on. If you don’t own it, it becomes the great obstacle.

Ryan: Transparency. I mean, that’s been so pivotal on our marriage. And that’s kind of the whole premise of Fierce Marriage is just living in the light and walking in the light. On that note, I was on a business trip. I did web stuff and I was in Chicago with somebody. I had met a new associate. We were going out to dinner. As we’re driving, he had kids and Selina was pregnant with our first daughter. And I was in the car with him and I said, “Hey man, any advice? What advice do you have? We’re married going on 10 years, but we had a kid on the way. What’s your advice?” And he looked at me and he… I’ll never forget it. It was so transformational. He said, “They would rather live with you in a tent than without you in a mansion.”

Matt: Good. So good.

Ryan: And that just hit me like a ton of bricks. And that’s everything you’re saying. But it totally recalibrated the sense like I don’t have to have… If my priorities are Kingdom priorities and I care about the right things, meaning my family, my wife, my kids, and providing for them, then I’ll have to have all the stuff or the status or anything like that. But sometimes you don’t have that luxury. The question I have for you now is, what advice do you give to the husband who’s like, “Yeah, I totally agree. But if I don’t show up at 8 a.m. and I don’t leave late because everybody’s watching and I need to please my bosses and my co-workers, otherwise, I might lose my job,” or “I have to travel for work and I can’t get out of this job,” what are some steps that a husband can take in an effort to kind of rebalance that area of his life, even if he feels trapped?

Matt: I guess it’s hard to say because those decisions, those hard decisions are different for everybody. For me, I actually left my career. Obviously, not everybody can do that. Not everybody will choose to do that even if they should do that. But what I can say is, as you know, just starting with some realizations that can change your heart to move you towards the right decisions. I think one of the most transformational ideas, I mean, obviously, beyond scripture, just practical things I’ve ever heard someone say to me, Dr. Henry Cloud, he said, “Character is about the ability to meet the demands of reality.” And we all have our own reality. But when you really understand what is required of me and can I step up and meet that challenge, meet the demand?

So for me, I think it starts with the reality check. Number one, we all have these desires and we think we think about what’s most important to us. I’m trying to stop to say because I don’t want to ramble on. I want to choose my words carefully. I would say two things really quick. Number one, I would say, so many of us have an internal dialogue of how we view ourselves and how we think other people view us. I look at it like I bought this workout ball from Target and it’s more like an octagon with flat sides, black with yellow letters, and it has all these different exercises on it. So you throw it on the ground, whatever you pops up, like dice, it tells you what to do, you do it.

So I had this in the backseat of my car and I saw every single day I looked down and it says, “30 sit-ups.” I looked at it for two months sitting in the back of my car. And in my mind, I did those 30 sit-ups. And I felt good about the sit-ups. I was like, “Man, I’ve got to use this thing. It’s just sitting in my car.” So I bring it in my house, sits in my mudroom for another two months, push-ups is facing me. And in my mind, like I’m getting ripped on my good intentions. Like every day I’m envisioning myself working out and I feel good about owning this thing. But it’s just an idea. It’s just a visualization. It’s an imagination of who I really am not who anybody else actually sees me to be because there’s no real results.

And I think so often, we look at all the things or imagine ourselves doing the things that we want to be doing, be a better husband, be a better father, be a better man of faith, a follower of Christ. We’ve got to stop and go, “Am I actually the person that I perceive myself to be?” So I think it starts the reality check there.

Then another reality check for me, the biggest reality check is this, and this is the encouragement I would give to any guy out there struggling with this, with wealth, fame, career, all that stuff, there are a thousand people behind you in line waiting for your job, wanting your job, and they will never be sad to see you go. And the hard truth about that is that when you move on from your career and somebody else takes your place, the world will go on without you. Maybe people will remember, think of you fondly, appreciate your gifts while they’re on display, but the world will go on and most likely most people will forget you in that role. But your wife has one husband, your kids have one father. Without you in that role, there is forever a painful boy. I think putting it in perspective that way and remembering that, what’s the reality of what I’m prioritizing? Man, it’s hard to do, but it’s a daily exercise to really look at what matters.

Selena: So good.

Ryan: It reminds me of Psalm 90:12. Lord, teach me to number my days that I might gain a heart of wisdom. Don’t quote me on that verse reference. But I know that’s what the verse says. But numbering our days. Obviously, you can’t predict how many days you’re going to have until you die. That would be terrifying, right? But we can have a sober view of our own limits, our own finitude, our own…like we’re not omniscient, we’re not omnipresent. We have kind of this Western complex because we’re connected on the internet, we feel like we can know everything, we can be everywhere. So much of that is just a bald-faced lie, right? We need to accept the fact that I am one person, I have a small calling, I’m a cog in this massive work that God is doing, and I needed to play my role faithfully for my family. And keep those priorities in check there.

Again, I just want to go back to Proverbs because while you’re talking, this came to mind. I don’t know. It’s about just God graciously revealing to us this sweet spot in our lives because we so often get out of balance. But it says, “Two things I ask of you; deny them not to me before I die:” This is Proverbs 30:7 Remove far from me falsehood and lying; give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is needful for me, lest I be full and deny you and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’ or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God.” So it’s seeing correctly with right priorities and asking God, “God, give me exactly what I need, and give me a hunger for exactly what is helpful for me so that I might glorify you and not profane you.” You know what I mean?

Matt: Yeah.

Ryan: I don’t know I feel like for a husband who may be wrestling with this, I think that’s maybe a good prayer to start with. It’s just, “God helped me see these areas.” I think every husband, if you’re listening to this, you probably care about your marriage, if you’re a wife and you’re listening to this, you might may or may not feel like your husband is actually in tune with what maybe his career is doing for your family. But I think starting with that prayer is probably the best, I don’t know, best place to start.

Matt: Yeah. Man, I love that.

Selena: I have just one more question before probably our final question that we always ask everybody. But I have one question before that. How did your wife help you transition? I mean, that’s a huge transition. You say these words and I’m like, “I think of all the concerts, all the people, all the…everything.” It’s an identity. Music has that pull on your heart in a unique way. I think then other things, it can easily wrap your identity more than others. Anyways, there’s a lot of pitfalls there. How did your wife love you through that? How did she lead you in some sense maybe, if she did? How can a wife support in that role? Or maybe even a husband. But whoever is in that role of, “Okay, I see him or her making those steps. I want to love them well through this.” What would you say to that person from your wife’s example?

Matt: Man, I think that there was kind of a surprise in that process for us. So leading up to making that decision, I feel like the way that Sarah loved me so well was fighting to bridge the gap between us. Like what I saw as her fighting against me for so long, I realized was her fighting for me, because she thought that our marriage was worth it. The interesting part about that is once my heart really embraced that this woman was fighting for me and not against me and I made this decision about what I needed to do to prioritize them by stepping away, I mean, honestly, God just did a miracle in me, where He allowed me to take this thing over 20 years that in a way that I built with my friends and just hand it back and say, “Never mind to begin with.” And I was able to let it go. I don’t know how. I’m not saying that to my own horn because it was a problem of mine for so long It was almost like a healing for me. The surprise in all that was once I left the band, Sarah realized that her identity had been caught in it as well.

Selena: Interesting.

Matt: She started saying like it was almost more painful for that for her than for me, because she had never realized that her identity was in it until I was gone. So where I kind of did that grappling ahead of time to make the decision, she had that realization later. So what happened it was an actually an opportunity for me to step up and not be wavering and be strong and confident in my decision and where God was leading our family, and to actually take that role and lead where God was calling me. So it turned into a really beautiful way for me to be able to take the first step in this leading that I was called to do.

Selena: That’s awesome. And then, as a wife, I would imagine that builds her confidence and trust in you and this new kind of reality that you guys are finding yourselves in, which is only at work and beautiful work of God. Right?

Matt: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I definitely felt that. Like when she had those moments of, “Are you sure you made the right decision?” I’m like, “Absolutely 100%.”

Selena: Oh, man.

Matt: You’re right. I did feel that kind of trust her leaning in me more than she ever had before. And it felt like this is part of what God had for us here.

Selena: Yeah, so good. So good.

Ryan: Anytime you step out in faith like that, when it’s informed by wisdom and prayer and counsel and agreement, it hurts because there’s this uncertainty and how is this going to work? But I can’t say and that maybe you’ll agree, but anytime we’ve stepped out in faith, Selena, it’s always been really scary but also like I would never change it in the hindsight. Even if it failed, spectacularly, God will still use it somehow. It sounds like you probably said the same thing.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. There’s one more thing to the thought of why we’re talking about this issue of leading where God is taking us and standing firm on that. An interesting transition for us out of that was…and I think this goes to for people who are kind of very career-focused and struggle to prioritize family. I speak for a Family Life Weekend To Remember conferences a few times a year. And one of the things in their guidebook that I love, it talks about being a husband and father and how we neglect our responsibilities at home, how we force our wives and children to learn to live without us. And that was also really healing things for us because I’ve been gone so much that in a way she was forced to learn to live without me. So then once I was there, I had to rebuild that trust that I could be there, that she could rely on me. And that’s an important trust to have in a marriage. Any marriage relationship.

Ryan: Maybe that’s why she was asking if it was the right decision or not, because you were home all of a sudden. She’s like, “Are you sure you should be here?” [all laughs]

Matt: Yeah. She’s like, “That got to sink in.”

Selena: It’s a more familiar reality during that transition. [all laughs]

Ryan: We have one more question we like to ask all of our guests.

Selena: It’s kind of a fun one.

Ryan: It’s fun. And you actually have an advantage because your wife’s not here.

Selena: We’ll ask that to Sarah next time we get them on. [chuckles]

Ryan: What’s your favorite date…Date, right?

Selena: Most memorable.

Ryan: What’s your most memorable or favorite date that you guys have ever been on?

Matt: Oh, man. Sarah and I actually love the mountains. We still look so fondly on…well, several times we’ve been to the mountains together, but we took our honeymoon up in the Sleeping Bear Dunes near Traverse City Michigan up in a little cabin. I actually have some really funny stories about it in the book. But that does is like the ideal getaway. Some people love the beach and we like the beach okay, but we love the mountains.

Ryan: That’s awesome.

Selena: That’s awesome.

Ryan: That’s awesome. You’ve toured all over the world probably, so you’ve probably been to Washington State. We have Mount Rainier and all that kind of stuff.

Matt: I love it up there. I was just up in Bend, Oregon. I love that town so much. Seattle is actually my favorite city. Top five for me. I love it out there.

Ryan: Awesome. Well, if you’re over here next time, make sure you hit us up. We’ll take you to the best spots. Best mountain spots. Matt, thank you so much, man.

Selena: That’s awesome.

Ryan: Thanks for joining us. Thanks for taking time to teach us and kind of give us a peek into your life. Lead Me, right? Lead Me the book, it Finding Courage to Fight for Your Marriage, Children, and Faith. Where should folks go to find that book?

Matt: If you go to my website, you can connect to all my social. I’m just Matt Hammitt everywhere. It’s just my name with two Ms and two Ts. I’m on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and then Matthammitt.com.

Ryan: Awesome.

Matt: They also can find everything about us there.

Ryan: Awesome. Once again, Matt, thank you so much for the interview. Thanks for talking to us. And please do thank Sarah on our behalf for holding down the fort well so you could talk to you. [all laughs]

Selena: We look forward to having her.

Ryan: Yes, yes. Until next time, [inaudible]

Matt: Definitely. All right.

Ryan: Hey, guys. We really hope you enjoyed this interview with Matt Hammitt. As we mentioned during the interview, if you want to find more information about Matt and his resources, you can simply go to Matthammitt.com. Two Ms, Two Ts. Other than that, we hope you have a very blessed week. Take care.

[00:35:25] <outro>

Ryan: Thank you for listening to the Fierce Marriage podcast. For more resources for your marriage, please visit FierceMarriage.com, or you can find us with our handle @Fiercemarriage on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you so much for listening. We hope this has blessed you. Take care.